Episode 5 - Building the Spoony brand we know and love with Emma & Anja from Shadowboxer

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Transcript

Larissa: This podcast is recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nations. We pay our respects to the traditional custodians of this country and elders past and present. We extend our respects to any First Nations, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people joining us today.

Maddy: Welcome to today's episode of No Spoons to Give the podcast where we explore life's ups and downs with neurodivergence, chronic illness and disability, and chat with the voices that make our community so vibrant. So how are you going today, Larissa?

Larissa: I'm good, Maddy, how are you going?

Maddy: I'm good as well.

Larissa: That's good. Have you got a recommendation for me this morning?

Maddy: I do. It's a book. Typical, I know. It's called Social Queue by Kay Kerr. It's a warm-hearted and hilarious young adult fiction book about autism, navigating the chaos of dating and finding your place as a neurodivergent person in a neurotypical world. It's really such a wonderful read.

Larissa: That sounds like right up my alley. I've actually got an audiobook for you today.

Maddy: Amazing.

Larissa: It's called, The Year I Met My Brain, by Matilda Boseley. And it's a book for people who have just found out that they have ADHD. It's very chaotic, hilarious. In typical ADHD me fashion, I started it and forgot that I started it. So I've picked it up six months later and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. So yeah, definitely recommend that one.

Maddy: I'll have to check it out. Sounds great.

Larissa: Today we're going to be talking about Spoony as a brand and taking a deeper look at all of the considerations we made when creating our branding, the overall feel, and designing the platform.

Maddy: You might not know this, but every single detail of Spoony, even things like the fonts and the colours, it's all designed with accessibility and our community in mind. Now, we're not designers by any stretch, but we have managed to bring in the two masterminds who helped us bring the vibe and personality of Spoony to life.

Larissa: We've got Anja and Emma in here today. Welcome to you both. It's so nice to all be here in person.

Emma: Thank you for having us. It's exciting to be here.

Maddy: So I'll start you off with a question. Do you mind telling us a little bit about what you both do and what your roles were when you were designing Spoony?

Emma: Yes. Maybe I'll start because I am not a designer, so let me just be really honest here. I am a creative director, but my background is in copywriting as well, so I'm far more responsible for the language and the way that Spoony's personality has come to life.

Anja: And your name's Emma.

Emma: Oh, yeah, my name is Emma. There you go. I also have ADHD, which is why I just jump into things and sometimes forget the basics, so thanks for introducing me, Anja.

Anja: My name is Anja obviously. And I'm actually a designer, so if you dislike the font or the colour or something, then you can blame me. That's okay.

Larissa: You both helped us bring Spoony to life when it was just a concept and a rough idea and it didn't look as good as it does now. And you both absolutely nailed it. What research did you both do to be able to come up with the branding and design and I guess the voice and feel of Spoony that would become so loved by our community?

Emma: Oh, gosh. I feel like there's been so much research, actually so much that the pair of you have done and Nick's done as well. It's you right off the bat just building such an engaged community and building that community first to then build a better product later I think has been critical to everything. But on top of that, just regular engagement with the community while you are building out that wait list. We also just had a lot of learning ourselves to do, lots of reading, accessibility guidelines for colour and type legibility and language, and there's just so many different considerations that we had to.

Anja: I mean, I feel like Spoony very nearly looked and sounded very different to what it does today actually, because very early on we did have another brand direction that had a different tone of voice and it had a different visual language. And Nick rightfully spent some time thinking about it and then came back the next week and was like, "I'm not sure does this right." And we put it to the community and there was a really overwhelming consensus that it wasn't quite right. It didn't feel quite right to them, and that's how we ended up at the beginnings of where we are today.

Larissa: We like to think of it as we've been co-building Spoony alongside our community as well. All of the surveys that we've done, all the constant tinkering and the feedback we've received has really just helped us shape the brand and hopefully push us in the right direction.

Maddy: Yeah, absolutely. You touched on this a little bit already, but how have you consulted with the disability community to create the accessibility features on Spoony? What's been your process in designing these features and also crafting the right language around these features?

Emma: We had a really great session. I think one really memorable moment for both of us was we had to do a design presentation, design walkthrough of some very initial screens. And that's pretty standard process, but what was unique about it was we actually presented it to Marco who is a consultant that you guys engaged and he's Blind. So it was a really, really valuable experience for us. I think, Anja, you can probably talk through this more, but having to walk through visual designs as if it was through a screen reader was a really, really interesting, valuable experience.

Anja: I remember that session. Yeah, lots of little things that maybe in our standard day-to-day would be considered best practise that actually is not accessible. And you don't necessarily always get the room all the time or even the input from someone like Marco or the community to know that that's the case. I do want to just acknowledge though before we maybe dive deeper into this question that I think we're still far from the end point of accessibility within Spoony and also that accessibility is very much a spectrum. And what works for one person may not work for the next person. And we're really conscious of the fact and we are also really conscious of the fact that we don't know everything and we're learning with the feedback that we get. And there's quite a few features I think in the backlog as well that will just bring more choice to the different needs of the community that aren't quite there yet.

Emma: Yeah, I think that's actually been one of the most interesting challenges as well when it came to building out Spoony was the audience is, I think Nick describes it as a mass niche where it's very particular, but within that exists so much and so many people with so many varying needs. And one person can have multiple conditions which actually have competing needs at any given time. And so, trying to balance that and create a great experience for everybody where there's some very conflicting needs and preferences existing at the same time has been a really interesting challenge.

And I would say by no means have we perfected it. And to echo Anja's point, it's just an ongoing process of listening and learning. But that's just been a really great experience. And I think one way we're trying to solve it is just by making choice paramount. That's probably our most core design pillar throughout the experience is enabling people to really create a Spoony experience that meets their needs on any given day and time because also respecting the fact that those needs can change from day to day as well.

Larissa: I love that too. We've had so much varying feedback from our audience. You guys have done such an amazing job. Because as you said, it is hard. One person might love the colours and one person might find it overwhelming, but I think giving people that choice to change between what they like and what they don't like and how that might change day to day, I think, yeah, that's the general direction we're hoping to go in.

Hey, Maddy, I want to talk about something that's been a total game changer for the neurodivergent, chronically ill and disabled community.

Maddy: Oh, you mean Spoony?

Larissa: I do. But today I want to focus on one of their standout features, the journal for symptom tracking. Whether you are managing flare-ups, trying to spot patterns or just need a space to unload your thoughts, Spoony's Journal is a tool you didn't know you needed.

Maddy: And it's so easy to use. You can track how you're feeling day-to-day, jot down notes about your symptoms and even tag triggers or treatments to see what's working and what's not. Over time, it helps you make sense of what might otherwise feel totally random.

Larissa: Plus you don't have to worry about ever feeling judged. It's private, secure and designed with empathy in mind. It's like having a health diary that gets you.

Maddy: Honestly, it's perfect if you're looking to take charge of your health while staying in tune with yourself.

Larissa: So, if you are ready to track your symptoms, find patterns and gain some real insight into your health, download Spoony now and check out their journal feature. It's a little extra support in your pocket right when you need it most.

Maddy: Spoony, it's more than just an app. It's your safe, stigma-free space for friends, support, and now powerful tools like symptom tracking.

Larissa: You can download it in the app store or Google Play and try it for free today.

Yeah, you guys are doing an amazing job of all of that.

Emma: Thank you.

Anja: We're learning. We're improving, we're learning.

Emma: Learning and unlearning. There's been so much unlearning-

Anja: Yeah, unlearning.

Emma: ... that we've had to do as well.

Anja: True.

Larissa: Yeah, yeah. And there's so many considerations like, me being neurodivergent, I'll think of I like dark mode, but then there's so many varying needs and we just don't know them all. And yeah, I think as long as we continue to survey and keep our community part of the conversation and the process, hopefully we can create an accessible platform that people love. I want to ask you both, do you have a favourite moment from working with Spoony so far?

Anja: Too many.

Emma: Yeah, there's been so many. I think this is a very broad one, but we have that feedback channel on Slack. And even we are users of Spoony as well, so we're actively using it, but also spying a little bit on the audience. And just seeing people post, like someone posted this week that it caught them off guard because they realised that they weren't masking while using Spoony.

Larissa: I did see that. Beautiful.

Maddy: That was such a gorgeous comment.

Emma: Yeah. And it was actually something that was quite confronting for them because they've never felt safe enough to do that and they had this moment of realisation where they had to reassure themselves that, "You're doing that because you're safe here and it's okay that you're not masking." And I thought that just seeing feedback like that and also knowing that people feel safe enough to post things like that on Spoony is really validating. So I think seeing that sort of stuff has just been, yeah, every week there's a new favourite moment because you see feedback like that.

Anja: I agree. I also think to me it's also not always a positive post is sometimes even seeing someone just having a bad day or needing help and support and then someone else reaching out, that makes me so happy. And I feel so thankful that we've been part of the journey so far and hopefully for a long time to come because it's so apparent that death is overwhelming need for a place like Spoony. And it's amazing to see even in the short time that it's been live, how it has changed people's lives.

Emma: Yeah, I think this is less of a moment... Sorry, I'm going to go on about this question because there's so much that I love. Less of a moment, but more just the Spoony community are definitely my favourite thing about this entire project. They are just so patient, so tolerant, so forgiving.

We build digital products every day and this is the first time that we've had an audience who has been patient and kind and understanding when we've launched an MVP that's a little bit buggy, but we need to get something out there to be able to learn. And everyone is like, "This has a potential to be so great. Here are some things I think you can improve." And it's really nice because the audience want us to succeed.

Larissa: Yeah, I noticed that too.

Emma: They want Spoony to win. And that's a really nice feeling and something that we don't get very often in our jobs. You're normally trying to push a product onto someone and try and make them like it. But here it's almost the other way around. People like what we have and they're trying to help us get it to where it needs to be. That's been-

Anja: Yeah, it's a collaboration. It's not a Spoony as a business and then Spoony's users, is like everyone is coming together and creating. It's like [inaudible 00:13:34]

Emma: Yeah, it's really rewarding and really validating. It means that clearly this product is needed by the community and it's wanted. And yeah, people want us to succeed, which is a really great feeling.

Anja: And also on that, just I love when people give feedback. I love it so much because we can give it our best guess and we can do research, but we can also look at data, but we can't know how good or bad something is for the community unless they tell us. And to Emma's point, and typically in our line of work, trying to understand what needs to be better or what is working well can sometimes be trying to.... What's that saying?

Emma: Get blood out of a stone?

Anja: What?

Emma: Sword out of a stone?

Larissa: Pulling straws?

Maddy: A needle in a haystack?

Anja: Maybe one of them.

Emma: All of the above?

Anja: Or just choose one of them.

Emma: So many idioms.

Anja: And it's the opposite for Spoony, right? People actually reach out where they post about what works for them and what doesn't. And I so appreciate the bluntness and I so appreciate the level of detail as well that people go into. Because ultimately that enables us to make the right decisions for the community and build a better product in the long run.

Larissa: Yeah. And they've just been so involved as well. Where Maddy and I constantly through the support email and the feedback email where we are getting feedback daily, we're getting bug reporting. People have been so amazing in reporting bugs. And if I find a bug in an app, I close it and don't think about it again. But our community is screen recording it and sending it to us.

And then when we first put out the MVP, it was buggy, but we did, as you said, we had to just get something out there. I remember seeing comments of people being like, "The devs, it's a small team, they're working really hard," and backing us. Not that I'm a dev. Wanting us to do well and succeed because they really feel a part of what we're doing. And they are, we're co-building it with them. And I think of our community at the top and they're the people we're trying to build Spoony for and then we're doing that for them. Yeah.

Maddy: So we spoke a little bit about how we're building Spoony alongside the community. What has been the process that you've been a part of in making the community a really big, important part of Spoony?

Emma: I feel like in a lot of ways have been our jury. Whenever we've had a disagreement as a team-

Anja: True.

Emma: ... we're like, "You know what? Let's just put it to the community. Let's just send out a survey." And we're like, "Oh, it's going to take a while to get a decision. We really need a quick decision." And I remember Nick being like, "No, no, our community are pretty engaged." And within an hour we had 600 replies or something ridiculous. And it was such a landslide decision as well. So, I think, yeah, it's been so good.

Anja: Yeah. And a note of on your thinking about your thinking about the Spoon status and us exploring different icons.

Emma: We spent three days arguing about it as a team.

Anja: Everyone was very passionate. Okay.

Emma: Yeah. And so no one was stepping down, no one was admitting defeat here. So we were just like, "Let's ask the people." And actually, I don't know if we ever won a single one of those arguments.

Anja: No, Nick was always right.

Emma: Nick was always right. Yeah. I mean that was humbling.

Anja: That's why he's the founder.

Larissa: I remember him sending that Homer Simpson thing of him like slinking back into the bushes

Anja: It's the only reaction that is possible in that instance.

Emma: Yeah. But I think, yeah, the willingness to be wrong has definitely-

Anja: Yeah. I'm happy to be wrong if the community tells me that I'm wrong. But I'm also willing to push for what I think is the best design decision regardless.

Larissa: I think we're all happy to be wrong with any of this as well. I want to ask you both what's on the roadmap for this year and have you got any fun hints that you can give us for the community?

Emma: Oh, I don't know. I don't know what we're allowed to talk about. Oh my gosh, there's so much in the backlog. There's a lot. It's a matter of prioritising them though. There's many, community, heads up, you'll probably get a few more surveys and things like that.

Anja: Definitely.

Emma: Get called a bit more jury duty. But I would say that everything is really focused on creating a more safe social space. I think that that is especially critical right now, not just for our community, but just the world needs more safe spaces for people to exist. I think it would suck getting rid of fact-checking and all of the political climate at the moment everywhere around the world. Yeah, safety is going to be a really big point of focus over the coming months.

Anja: Yeah, I think the other big one is just focusing our efforts on really enabling super meaningful connections between people. Because ultimately, I think that's one of the core reasons why Spoony exists is creating not just friendship, but having a village around you, whether they're local or global, and just knowing that there's support when you need it, but also maybe when you don't need it. And there's so many ideas around it, but also I think by the time everyone's listening to this, a big feature will have been live for hopefully a couple weeks, and that is Match, which I cannot wait-

Emma: Yeah, I'm really excited for that one.

Anja: ... to see.

Emma: It's been a long time coming. Thank you, everybody, for all of your patience.

Anja: Yes.

Emma: Very much appreciate it.

Anja: Yeah, we'll probably learn by then what doesn't work as well. And there will be another backlog of all the things we want to improve about the Match feature and how we support people in finding their next bestie.

Emma: Yeah.

Anja: But yeah, that's a big one. And then lots of stuff around that. You'll have to just stay on the app and be active and find out.

Larissa: Absolutely.

Maddy: It's very exciting.

Larissa: Yeah. That's probably a good place to wrap up on. Emma and Anja, thank you so much for coming in today. We know you're both so busy and we really appreciate your time. So yeah, thanks for popping in and chatting with us.

Anja: Thank you for having us.

Emma: Thank you so much. Thanks.

Larissa: This podcast is brought to you by Spoony, a safe space for neurodivergent, chronically ill and disabled people to make friends and find support. Spoony is the world's first social app designed with accessibility at its core. If you liked this episode, it would mean the absolute world to ask if you could hit subscribe or share it with a friend. If you'd like to join our Spoony community, you can download the app via the app store or Google Play. And if you'd like to keep up to date with us on social media, you can follow us by the links in the show notes.