Episode 2 - How to make fashion accessible with Emma & Molly from JAM the Label

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Transcript

Maddy: This podcast is recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nations. We pay our respects to the traditional custodians of this country and elders past and present. We extend our respects to any First Nations, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people joining us today.

Welcome to today's episode of No Spoons to Give the podcast where we explore life's ups and downs with neurodivergence, chronic illness and disability, and chat with the voices that make our community so wonderful. So Larissa, how are you going?

Larissa: I'm good, how are you?

Maddy: I'm doing well.

Larissa: Have you got a recommendation for me today?

Maddy: I absolutely do. This time, I have a recommendation of a film. It's called The Remarkable Life of Ibelin. It's a heartfelt documentary about a disabled Norwegian gamer who, after his death from a neuromuscular disease, is revealed to have a vibrant online social life where he fostered a community and made a profound impact on other gamers. It will make you cry, it will make you feel everything, but it is such a fantastic watch. Can't recommend it enough.

Larissa: That sounds great.

Maddy: What about you? Do you have a recommendation?

Larissa: I do. It's a film on Netflix, or a documentary. It's called You Can't Ask that. It's an oldie, I think it was on ABC, but they've just released it on Netflix. It's basically where strangers submit anonymous questions to people from different, typically minority groups, so disabled people, wheelchair users, even people who have been to prison, and they just go through the questions. It's really wholesome, really authentic, really raw at times. But definitely recommend watching that.

Maddy: Fantastic. I'll have to check it out.

Larissa: In more exciting news, we'll be chatting with the founders of JAM the Label today, an adaptive clothing brand that makes the task of dressing easier or more comfortable for people with disability.

Maddy: So I think we've both had lots of different experiences with clothing and struggling with sensory issues and finding clothes that work for hospital stays. I know I've really struggled when I'm getting an IV to find jackets that I can actually wear, because I get really cold, and also be able to have an IV in. I also struggle so much with tags and things like that.

Larissa: That whole overstimulation thing as well, is massive.

Maddy: It's the worst, yeah.

Larissa: Yeah.

Maddy: What do you find?

Larissa: I have that myself, but also I have worked in aged care in a previous life, so working with elderly people and disabled people and dressing was a big part of that, and it could take up a lot of time if you didn't have the right clothes. So definitely a big issue that you guys are solving. For those who don't know you, would you like to introduce yourselves, Molly and Emma?

Emma: I'm Emma.

Molly: And I'm Molly.

Emma: And we're both occupational therapists, disability support workers, and the co-founders of Jam the Label, which, as you said, is an adaptive clothing brand that makes dressing easier or more comfortable for people with disability.

Maddy: Wonderful. So please tell us a little bit more about how the idea of JAM came about?

Emma: So Molly and I actually met while studying to become OTs at uni, and at the time we were working casually as disability support workers, which so many Allied Health students do, just to get a bit of experience. We were working mostly with young people with disability at the time, and we used to come together at uni and talk about our shifts. And two people we were working with really frequently were Jack and Maddy. So Molly worked with Jack and I worked with Maddy, and they both have cerebral palsy. They're full-time wheelchair users and they're physically fully reliant on others to get dressed each day.

So Molly and I used to talk about our shifts with Jack and Maddy, and about the different things we would do with them. And something that always came up in conversation was dressing and how that was taking a really long time, how it was a really difficult activity to do with Jack and Maddy, and how it was just a really degrading process. And we just felt like there was nothing out there at the time that was fashionable for Jack and Maddy and stuff we would want to wear, but also functional and stuff that was easy to get dressed in and quick and a more graceful process, I guess.

Larissa: Absolutely. And I imagine if you just have a limited amount of time with them as their support worker, if you're spending so much of that time dressing, that's for both of you, that could be spent doing more fun activities together or so many different things.

Molly: Exactly. And as teenagers, they don't want to be lying there for an hour-

Larissa: Absolutely.

Molly: ... getting assistance to be dressed. They want to be out there doing fun activities and doing other things.

Larissa: Yeah. Can you run us through a little bit about what makes your clothing adaptable and what changes you've made?

Emma: Yeah, sure. So I think when we first started JAM, we started with one product, which was a wheelchair accessible jacket. So that was a very adaptive piece in that it was specifically designed for ease of use for wheelchair users. And that was based off an experience that we both used to have on a weekly basis for Jack and Maddy, if you want to talk about that story?

Molly: Yeah, so obviously we're in Melbourne at the moment, and so the weather obviously changes very quickly.

Larissa: Absolutely.

Molly: So Jack and I would always be going for walks or anything like that and we'd be out and about, and the weather would change quickly and I'd have to pop a jacket on him really quickly. And he's a wheelchair user, as Emma said. So has different straps and supports and lots of different things that make getting a jacket on really hard. We often liken it to trying to put a jacket on or take it off when you are in your car with your seatbelt on.

Maddy: Wow.

Larissa: Not an easy fit. It's so difficult.

Molly: Yeah, exactly. And so what I'd end up doing in my panicked state would be either putting his hoodie on backwards with the hood hanging down the front to just get something on him, or often a blanket would be put over him. And Emma and I always used to think we can easily put our jackets on and off, so why can't we do the same? Why can't Jack do the same?

And so we created this jacket that Emma was discussing, which went over Jack and Maddy's head like a poncho and then did up at the wrist and zip down. So it was easy to put on and taken off whilst they were seated in their wheelchair. And so that was our first product, which was born from their specific dressing needs.

But going, moving through, we now consider so many different things in our designs, and it's not just for those with physical disability.

Emma: I think that was a big change from our original product, was it was very adaptive and with a particular dressing need in mind. Whereas now we prefer to use our principles of universal design to try and be inclusive of as many different people and dressing needs as possible. So we have actually adjusted that jacket now, where it was originally cropped at the back, so that for those that are wheelchair users, there wasn't all this extra fabric at the back. But if you weren't a wheelchair user, you couldn't really wear it.

Now it's got an additional panel that's removable, so if you want it to be cropped, it can be, or if you want it full length and to be able to walk around with a full length jacket, it can be as well. So I think our designs are a lot more inclusive now and really consider how broad disability is and how many dressing needs are out there.

Maddy: So you said that JAM is not just for people with physical disabilities. Can you give me some examples of some of the amazing clothes that you've made that help out other people?

Molly: Yeah, so when we're designing, we consider the broadness of disability, so we consider those with intellectual disability, those with sensory needs relating to dressing, those with chronic pain or chronic fatigue, those with physical disability as well, but not just wheelchair users. So we try to think about as many different dressing needs as we can when we're designing. So for example, I'm wearing our linen shirt today, and so it's got magnets instead of buttons. I won't undo it all the way.

Larissa: It's not that type of show.

Molly: Yeah, exactly. We've got magnets instead of buttons, so that means that it's really useful for people with difficulty with fine motor skills, but it's also really useful for someone who may have chronic fatigue, who they may not have difficulty with doing up the buttons, but it's that task of doing the buttons up that then takes their energy away and it means they can't do something else that's more meaningful to them. So yeah, we have a few products here actually if we-

Larissa: Yeah, if you'd like to show us, that would be amazing.

Emma: Yeah, I think another design feature that's in all of our products that we refer to in saying how broad the benefits are, is that none of our products have tags. So it's all printed on labels. And I think at the start when people hear that, they think, "Oh, for those with sensory needs related to dressing." But we always talk about-

Molly: Which it definitely is for.

Emma: Obviously it's beneficial, but we also talk about the example of Jack and Maddy who they may not have particular sensory needs related to dressing, but because they have very limited mobility, they're not able to readjust their top if a tag is annoying them. They also have very limited communication. And so to be able to tell those around them, "Oh, this tag's really annoying me," is really difficult. And so for people like that, it's also considering how small adjustments or small adaptations to clothing can make a huge difference, not just to those who you originally might think might benefit from it.

Larissa: I love all those little considerations you guys have made. Just every little detail is amazing.

Molly: Thank you. And I think that's where us being occupational therapists really helps because I think we have a really good understanding of how diverse people's dressing needs are, but then how to use one design feature to then meet a lot of different needs and the way those can be used. We have a drop crotch on our pants and we know that's really beneficial for people who are in the seated position or wheelchair users because they can pull the pants up a bit higher, but it's also really beneficial for someone who may have continence aids, and so they need a bit of extra room in their pants as well. So I think something like a drop crotch may seem just like a fashion feature, but we know how to utilise it really functionally as well.

Larissa: Yeah, that's cool. And where did you actually go to... I imagine designing this if it hasn't really been done before, what was that process like? It sounds like it would be incredibly challenging.

Emma: Yeah.

Molly: Yeah.

Emma: We learnt a lot. So obviously our background was not in fashion design or business.

Molly: We're OTs.

Emma: Yeah, exactly. We came to it really experiencing this problem and getting so much feedback from our clients and thinking, "I think we can come up with the functional aspects of this." But the fashion design was a whole other kettle of fish. So we were very fortunate right at the start that we just had a lot of people within our network naturally that could help us out. One of Molly's good friends was studying fashion design at the time. She helped with our original sample. We had your brother and my brother-in-law working in legal that were able to help us out. So we were very fortunate to lean on those people a lot at the start.

And someone we utilised a lot in the early stages, particularly for the fashion side of things, was a business in Melbourne called A Fitting Connection. Katrina, her job at the time was to connect small fashion labels or designers with the different services or products they needed to get their products going. So she helped us make our first sample. She connected us to our manufacturers. She held our hands through that whole process.

Molly: Because I think a lot of it, we knew what we wanted, but we did not have the terminology for it. So we'd like, "We want something that's a seam like this." And she'd be like, "Okay, that's this seam." [inaudible 00:10:55].

Larissa: When you said drop crotch before, I had to think. Obviously that's-

Molly: Like, what's a drop crotch?

Larissa: ... just those fashion terms.

Maddy: Exactly.

Larissa: Not having that lingo from the start would be difficult.

Emma: Yes.

Molly: Exactly, yes. And some of them we still are like, we know what we need it to do functionally. We don't have the words for it, but we'll figure it out.

Emma: And I think that's something that probably is a bit different about our processes with the manufacturers, is that often we'll give over a design or explain our designs and what we need from it. And the first sample that comes back will be like, "Yeah, it's exactly what you asked for." And we're like, "No, you changed this and that makes a huge difference functionally."

Molly: Zip directions.

Emma: Yeah, the direction of a zip or the length of a sleeve or pants or something like that, can make such a difference to our design. Where I think a lot of the manufacturers aren't used to that being that important.

Maddy: A consideration, yeah.

Emma: So we're having to really justify ourselves and explain, "No, that might be a little design feature for you. But for us it's really important."

Molly: We manufacture offshore, and I think they've never come across adaptive fashion before. And so we do have some very funny stories. One of our manufacturers, we've got multiple emails where he just keeps calling them, "Very unusual pants, weird pants."

Emma: "Weird pants"/

Larissa: "Your very unusual pants are ready."

Emma: Yes, yeah.

Molly: We're like, "They're not unusual. They're adaptive."

Emma: So it's been a big learning curve for us, and I think it will just continue to be.

Larissa: Hey Maddy, I want to talk about something that's been a total game changer for the neuro-divergent, chronically ill and disabled community.

Maddy: You mean Spoony?

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Maddy: And it's so easy to use. You can track how you're feeling day-to-day, jot down notes about your symptoms and even tag triggers or treatments to see what's working and what's not. Over time, it helps you make sense of what might otherwise feel totally random.

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Maddy: Honestly, it's perfect if you're looking to take charge of your health whilst staying in tune with yourself.

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Do you want to show us what you brought in today?

Emma: Yeah, sure.

Larissa: Very keen to see.

Emma: Do you want to take the jumper?

Molly: Yes.

Emma: I'll show the skirt. So this is our magnetic belt wrap skirt. So with all of our products, we try to make them that they look like any other equivalent of that. So it obviously looks like any other wrap skirt. So it fully opens up and it's got the Velcro in there for adjustability, but just ease of wrapping it around and then just clicking together.

Larissa: That is so cool.

Maddy: That magnetic buckle is so good.

Molly: They're all really good, I feel like we play with all the-

Maddy: Very satisfying.

Molly: ... different, a real sensory, sensory toys, all those magnet-

Larissa: Yeah, it's very satisfying, and the colour's beautiful as well.

Emma: So beautiful.

Larissa: For anyone who can't see it, it's a... What do you call that type of green?

Emma: It's a forest green.

Larissa: A forest green, yeah. Very on-trend.

Molly: We've got two collections at the moment. We've got our essentials collection that we're always going to stock, which is sort of your wardrobe staples, which we are both wearing. So Emma's wearing a white long sleeve and I'm wearing a white linen shirt, which we realised we were like, "We probably should have worn different colours," but it's fine. But they're wardrobe staples that you can add your own flair to. And then we've got our capsule collection, which we released a little while ago now, but that one was ore trend focused, trying to be a bit more funky because people with disabilities deserve other options, not just wardrobe staples. And so we tried to provide some more sort of fashion-forward ones.

Emma: A bit more colour.

Molly: Yeah. And I've got our neoprene jumper here. So this one is really useful for lots of different things, but particularly for access to the arm. So it has invisible zips along the inside of both sleeves, so it fully opens up to almost the armpit. So what you were talking about before with hospital stays, and we've had so many people purchase these who utilise it for wearing in hospital when they're having different things where they need access to their arms. And then it's also got a zip along the shoulder, which gives, I'll just unzip it, which gives greater access to ease of dressing, so easier to get on and off, but it also gives people access to their chest. So if they need access for things like a chest port that gives access there as well.

Maddy: That is so fantastic. That would transform people's experiences in hospitals.

Molly: We've had... Yeah, which I think when we were, we did design it for that originally, but I think we didn't quite expect the huge response that we got from the community about that.

Emma: And I think it's yet another example of how a small adaptation can make such a difference. It really is just putting an invisible zip along the sleeves in the right spots. But we've got so many emails or so much feedback of people that have been like, "Oh my gosh, I wore this to get chemo and all the nurses were amazed by it and I didn't have to take my jumper off. I was warm for the first time in hospital and I didn't have to wear something that was really daggy or medicalized, and I was able to have a bit of colour for my hospital stay".

And I think we obviously, as Molly said, intended it for that, but hearing that personal feedback just makes such a difference. It really makes you realise how much of an impact these things can have.

Larissa: Absolutely. And even with that side zip, it's not super noticeable either.

Emma: Exactly.

Larissa: So just maintaining that sense of dignity as well during treatment, and that's really cool.

Molly: Exactly. We either try and make the design features a fashion feature and make them... Like the buckle. We want that to look a bit, what's the word I'm looking for? I can't think of it.

Emma: Trendy?

Molly: Trendy. I mean-

Maddy: A focal point? A feature?

Molly: Yes, but no. I'm thinking of the type of style. You know what I'm talking about.

Emma: Yes, I know what you're talking about.

Molly: It doesn't matter. When we're designing, we either try and make it more sort of a fashion feature. Like the skirt, it's a very obvious buckle. But then we also, if we want things to be more subtle, we do make sure they are an invisible zip or Velcro places where you can't see. Or the magnets, you don't know that it's magnets unless you're looking really closely.

Larissa: Yeah, so cool.

Maddy: Yeah, that's fantastic to give those options, I think. Yeah, and it's so nice to see some colours as well, so lovely.

Emma: The pops of colour, yeah.

Larissa: I wanted to ask you guys, I discovered you through Shark Tank. I'm a very avid watcher. What was that experience like? You guys did so well, by the way.

Emma: Thank you.

Molly: Thank you.

Emma: It was very-

Molly: Unique.

Emma: ... unique, yes. Very surreal.

Larissa: Stressful?

Emma: Yes, very stressful.

Molly: We're not TV, that's not where we're comfortable, I think, in front of the cameras and things like that. So it was definitely an experience.

Emma: I think we always say we're so lucky to have each other. Going into that, there were so many other entrepreneurs who were by themselves and we're like, "How would you do this by yourself?" So the fact we had each other to be like, "Oh my gosh, it's so cringey to watch," is so much nicer in a way. And I think also to calm each other down and be like, "It wasn't as bad as what you thought," or, "You look fine."

Molly: And we're very stressed about different things, luckily. So when we're... The things that make Emma stressed or frustrated do not worry me, and vice versa. So that was good in the lead up when I was really nervous about some parts, but Emma was like, "No, don't worry about that. It's fine."

Emma: "That's not going to matter."

Molly: With the actual filming though, when we were actually in front of the Sharks, you actually forget. We forgot the cameras were there. It just felt like a normal pitch meeting, which we'd done before, obviously to very, quite intimidating people. But that part didn't feel any different, just a normal, it's the fact that you were standing in front of them instead of around a table. But the before and after filming bits were just not us.

Emma: Not our cup of tea and very hard to watch back.

Larissa: Yeah. I've heard that the pitches actually go for a long time and then they just cut it into a five... How long were you there for?

Emma: We were in the tank for almost an hour. So you go in, so you have to sort of memorise a three-minute pitch, which is what you go in and present to them. And they've never heard of your business before. They don't know anything about it before you go in there.

Molly: They just see the setup before you walk out.

Emma: Yeah, and so you give that three minute pitch and then after that it's about 45 to an hour of questions. So you have no... You can kind of guess what they're going to ask you, but you really don't know. So I think that was probably the most anxiety-inducing is being like, "Are they going to ask about this?" And preparing for that.

Molly: What if they throw out something, a total curve ball that we're like, "We've never thought about that before."

Larissa: Or a really detailed numbers question.

Emma: And that's what they show on TV.

Molly: Yes, they would show that if you're like, "Uh, uh."

Emma: Exactly. And I think that then after filming was the most stressful, was not knowing what they would show. Because as you said, they edit it down to a five-minute clip, so you're like, "Oh my gosh, I said so much stuff. How are they going to edit that?" Which I think also for our business type, we knew going in, they're probably not going to make us out to be villains.

Molly: Shark Tank's not really like that, but yeah.

Emma: Exactly, exactly. And after filming, we were pretty happy with how it went in terms of what we said and what we were asked, so I think that reassured us a bit too.

Molly: Yeah, and having Digby and Juttima, the models, there was the best thing. It was so comforting to have them there and to be like, "We're all in it together." And I think Digby in particular was so perfect for just chatting away and he wasn't nervous at all. He was the one that did up the shirt and he just was perfect. He did such a good job.

Emma: Really lightened the mood.

Molly: Yeah, he was just chatting away about how he wanted an Oodie. He was going to tell Davey-

Larissa: Because Davey was there.

Molly: Yeah, he was going to tell Davey he wanted an Oodie, and we were like, "Maybe you'd like-"

Larissa: Maybe after the show.

Molly: Not during the pitch, yeah.

Larissa: [inaudible 00:20:44].

Emma: I think it's so cool that we can say we did that and that was an experience we had. So I think overall it was a really positive, just a very surreal experience.

Larissa: Yes, one of those things that really just pushes your personal and professional boundaries?

Emma: Yes.

Molly: Exactly.

Maddy: So how do your clothes empower people and what does it mean for people with disabilities to have clothing that's been specifically designed for them?

Emma: I think there's a few different ways we think about this. I think obviously from a very practical and functional point of view, we talk about how adaptive clothing can increase independence and reduce the time taken to get dressed. But I think a really other big part of this is the psychological impact clothing can have on you. So we always talk about how if you opened your wardrobe and you only had one or two options that were accessible to you or easy to put on. Because for a lot of people with disability, trackies or leggings might be the only thing that's comfortable for them or easy for them to get on or off. Imagine how that would impact the rest of your day. So it's going to impact your motivation, your self-esteem, your confidence, that then impacts your interaction in social situations, your motivation to work, to access the community.

And so people having access to adaptive clothing, whether that be JAM products or any other adaptive clothing, can have such a flow-on effect to the rest of their day. And I think we go on about how a lot of people overlook the impact of fashion and say like, "I'm not into clothing. I don't care what I have. I'm happy to wear trackies or the same T-shirt." And it's like, "Yeah, but everyone wears clothing." And everyone does all these other occupations that the start of the day has been determined by what you've worn and what you've put on.

Molly: Even how we're talking about with energy levels.

Emma: Exactly.

Molly: It's all impacted by how you get dressed and what you're wearing.

Larissa: Exactly.

Molly: And then we have another part that we look at, which is where we've done things like Melbourne Fashion Festival or Melbourne Fashion Week, or our Australia Fashion Week, which was the first ever adaptive fashion runway at Australia Fashion Week. And we had so much feedback after that, which we were not emotionally prepared for, where people were like, "This is the first time ever that not only I've seen someone with disability on the runway, but we've actually been considered within the designs." And that was an incredible thing.

And I think that's where we want to show that people with disability should be considered by the mainstream fashion industry. And it is such an important, it's such a huge amount of people. It's not a small minority. So I think that's where we want people to feel empowered and they do belong and are able to have fun with their clothing and wear things that really express themselves, but that also work for them functionally.

Maddy: That's so important to have that balance.

Larissa: Yeah, absolutely. As you guys have been growing and getting bigger and getting, I guess, more followers and more wearers of your clothes, what's the overarching feedback been from the community?

Emma: Yeah, early on we got so much feedback from the young adult community saying, "Oh, this is so amazing to see, but we really need options that are appropriate to wear to work, appropriate to go to uni and socialise." And so that's what we've really based a lot of our product design off. And so since we've brought out our two collections that are targeting that young adult population, so much feedback has been like, "I've never seen things like this before. I've been able to go out on a date for the first time ever, or been able to wear an outfit to work that actually is comfortable and easy to get on, but also professional."

And so I think those, they might be individual pieces of feedback, but all of those combined just really has been so amazing to hear that our products do have an impact on people's lives and that it can have that bigger impact, I guess.

Molly: I think other feedback we get, which is on the flip side of that, is sometimes people talk about our pricing, which as a small business, I think we have to try and educate that we are a small business. I think there's a lot of smoke and mirrors that comes with being on things like Shark Tank or I think we appear a lot bigger than we are a lot of the time. And so we have people questioning that and we just have to explain that we can't really compete with bigger brands like Kmart when we'd maybe be comparable to other small businesses. And so I think we get so much good feedback, but the one tricky feedback or stuff that we have to work through with people is our pricing.

Larissa: That is super tricky. Where can people go to find out more about JAM?

Emma: Yeah, so we've got our website, which is jamthelabel.com, where they can see all of our products and learn more about us. We also have our social account, so Instagram and Facebook is just @jamthelabel.

Molly: And TikTok.

Emma: And TikTok, also TikTok.

Molly: We're trying to do TikTok. We're not good at it, but we're trying.

Larissa: Awesome. Thank you, Molly and Emma, thank you so much for coming in today. It's been great chatting with you. And thank you for bringing in the beautiful clothing that you did. Yeah, thank you.

Maddy: Thank you so much.

Emma: Thank you for having us so much.

Molly: Thank you.

Maddy: This podcast is brought to you by Spoony, a safe space for neurodivergent, chronically ill and disabled people, to make friends and find support. Spoony is the world's very first social app designed with accessibility at its core. If you liked this episode, it would mean the absolute world to us if you could hit subscribe or share it with a friend. If you'd like to join our Spoony community, you can download the app on the App Store or via Google Play. And if you'd like to keep up to date with us on social media, you can follow us via the links in the show notes.

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